he worked for many newspapers presumably before his conviction as you say and then he was rehired by the news of the world. >> do you believe he conducted illegal activities on behalf of news of the world. >> i can only come up -- no. i don't know that. >> what is your belief? >> i don't know. >> you don't know what he did? >> i don't know what he did for news of the world. i'm sorry. i don't know what he did. >> did you not think people will find it incredible as chief executive of the company you don't know? >> it may be incredible. but again, it is also the truth. i heard about reese's rehiring by the news of the world by investigation conducted by panorama. >> do you ever -- did you ever have any contact directly or through others with steve whitmore? >> yes. >> what did you do with him? >> he was one of the private detectives as i said who formed i think the major part of

operation motor man. >> do you remember what he did -- >> sorry. >> i'd like to know what you did with him? >> many the main my use of private investigators while i was editor of the news of the world was purely legitimate. and in pursuit in the main as you know for thes and whereabouts of convicted paid pedophiles. that is my majority use of private investigators myself. i respect that the news of the world also used private investigators for other stories. >> you're aware that he convicted two look ups on the dowda family long-term? >> i wasn't aware of that until two weeks ago. >> you are now. >> yes, i am. >> why did you hold a conversion from steve whitmore? >> it was 11 years ago.

i've answered this question many times. but just to repeat, a mobile conversion which is finding an address from a mobile phone that is what a mobile conversion is and can be got through legitimate means. in fact, the story that you're referred to, the mobile phone was a business number and the address was widely known. >> so you can remember what the story was there? >> i've just said to you, i've read it in "the new york times." >> was that a pedophile you were after there? >> i think if we infer to the person concerned because he's been named by the guardian and "the new york times." but what i'm saying is when i use -- the very few occasions in which i use a private detectives was on sara's law. >> can you name other dikt you'ves? >> no. >> are you aware of -- >> what? >> did the paper use other

private detectives other than whitmore, and reese? >> he was the one i was aware of at the time. as i said, the first time i heard about him was when he was arrested in 2006. is it your belief that you can't remember today? >> no, i remember. you have the same information as i have which is from operation motor man. >> one last question. do you have any redwrets? -- regrets? >> of course, i have regrets. the idea that dougha's phone was accessed by someone paid by the news of the world or authorized by someone from the news of the world is abhorrent to me as it is to everyone in this room. it's the ultimate regret that the speed of which we have found out and tried to find out the

bottom of this investigation has been too slow. i think james and rupert both accepted that earlier. and we are endeavoring -- what they are endeavoring now, i've left the company to continue to investigate. but of course there are regrets. >> thank you. >> i would like to draw you out in question i asked mr. james murdoch at the end of our last session which is on the culture of hacking, blacking and private detectives within fleet street. and to what extent the news of the world felt justified in those practices, everybody was doing it, if you like. i put to him that piers morgan now a celebrity anchor on cnn said openly in his book clearly which was published before this whole controversy broke that he had hacked phones. he said that he won scoop of the

year for a story about -- he gave a tutorial in how one accesses voice mail by punching in a code and clearly from the account that he gives he did it rue tenially as editor of the daily mirror. he was an exemployee of news international. we were talking about operation motor man and the different amounts of use that was made of steve whitmore by various members of fleet street. i went through information commissioner's report and i added them up for transactions in the daily mail's associated newspapers group, there were 1,387 transactions with mr. whitmore over used by 98 journalists in total across titles and supplements in that group. is it not -- is it not obviously the case there that blacking, hacking, the use of the use of

private investigators for elicit purposes was an absolute culture of fleet street and the news of the world participated in this illegal activities maybe with a sense of entitlement, because everybody else was doing it, is that not the case? >> i think, look, we've heard a lot over the last -- 1 1rk well ten years. but particularly i think the -- this committee head an inquiry into the operation. every editor of fleet street was called to this committee as far as i was concerned the failings of all newspapers and not understanding the extent of the use of private investigators across fleet street was held to account then. and there were many changes because of operation motor man to the data protection act. and although i accept the knowledge of the observer, it's

going to be far better than mine. they in fact wrote a very good editorial on this i think about three months ago. sort of addressing, again, readdressing that climate then and how different it is now. >> in the committee in 2003, concluded there was widespread evidence of despicable practices across the media. i appreciate the legal sins sensitives involved, but i will put it to you anyway. in this committee in 2003 you were asked if you had paid the police. you clearly said we have paid the police in the past. the naern in which you said that, you said it almost as though we have paid the police many the past the implication being as do all tabloid newspapers. i'm not asking you to make specific allegations. in your general knowledge were payments to the police widespread across fleet street or were they confined to news

international titles? >> if you remember the evidence as i gave in 2003 that it was actually i was going on to explain my comment and as you know mr. bryant was asking me to explain my comment and the actual session ended. in 2003 straight after my comment about payment to police was in fact clarified i think the hinton was the chairman of news international in the 2007 inquiry clarified it again. and i clarified it recently to the home affairs committee at tend of march, i think. i can say that i have never paid a policeman myself. i never sanctioned or knowingly sanctioned a payment to a police officer. i was referred if you saw at the time of the that you have people

from fleet street discussing that in the past payments have been made to police officers. i was referring to that wide held belief not widespread practice. and in fact, in my experience of doling with the police the information they give to newspapers comes free of charge. >> in evidence to parliamentary subcommittee yesterday he stated to his knowledge the daily mail has never published a story based on hacking or blacking. this from a group that operation motor man identified with 1,387 transactions across its titles. do you think it is credible that all those 1300 plus transactions were lis italy obtained or is there this widericalture of hacking and blaging which your paper was a part? >> i didn't see the evidence.

you'll have seen the answer to all the media groups in this country that news international has been the one to openly welcome the prime minister's public inquiry into i think which will be all fleet street practices. we haven't got the parameters yet. the fact is i'm not here in a position to comment on other newspaper groups. like i said at the beginning things went bdly wrong at the news of the world and we are doing our best now to sort it out. and i accept with not the speed that this committee would have wished, mistakes have been made, but we are trying to put them back right. i think on operation motor man it is important that there was a select inquiry into it, a select committee inquiry. it is properly right that the code of conduct of journalists and the ethics of journalist are in constant review because if they're not, the freedoms that this press enjoys which i

believe in very strongly, if there is not constant review in ethics they are at risk. >> your correspondents placed great emphasis on you willing to attend as part of a panel member as all of you have been identified with operation motor man. you appeared to put emphasis whatever happened at news of world it was part of a wider culture. if you seem to know or imply to these practices were going on elsewhere, how could you not be aware that they were going on indemocratically at the news of the world. and did you not regret that you did not yours undertake some kind of rooted branch investigation into the news of the world rather than waiting for thins to drip out? >> i think just going back to 2002-2003 with all the changes to the data protection act, the

fact is there was a root and branch change slult of the inquiry and offices reporting. there was a fundamental change there across most newspapers and particularly like i said i was then editor of the sun. i can say absolutely that is sun is a very clean ship, a great newsroom. and in particular the operation motor man referred to the news of the world and the sun was a part of it. >> thank you. >> jim sheridan. >> miss brooks. rupert murdoch in his evidence session said quitely that the responsibility for the closure of news of the world fell fairly and swearly on senior management which i assume would include

you, is that the case? >> i think i missed that part of the evidence. i think mr. murdoch said it exactly how it was. that it was a collective decision. we all talked together. mr. murdoch was abroad at the time at a conference. we all talked together. >> murdoch senior? >> yes, rupert murdoch. >> you were going to say something snels. >> no. >> when you were advising your staff the paper was closing during the private session. i think you said something like there was more to come. youl you like to expand? >> when i went down to the newsroom to explain the decision, clearly and and quite rightly the journalists on the news of the world who very honorable journalists who have been putting out the newspaper under the scrutiny for a long

time and with great exclusives and great pride in their newspaper were very sad and baffled by management's decision to close the paper. what i was saying to them is that right now you may not be able to right in this moment understand why we've done it. as the months and i think i said in a year's time i think you will come to a realization that we actually did the right thing. once you have broken the trust with the readers there's not much going back. unfortunately the news of the world used to lead the headlines for the right reasons. for its -- the cricket scandal recently. but for the last few months and probably the last few years it's been leading the headlines for the wrong reasons. once that trust was broken we felt that that was the right decision. of course, it wasn't the right decision for the hundreds of journalists who worked on there who have done nothing wrong.

many of whom were in news of the world and many have spent years at the news of the world but are not culpable for everything. we endeavored to find a job for every single one of them. >> i accept it just wasn't journalists, secretaries, engineers, drivers, all it may be. >> everybody. thank you. >> not just in news international, but across news corporation. >> what do you think will happen in a year that they don't know now? >> as i've said, part of the problem with this story is the lack of visibility of the documentation seized from mullcare's house in 2006. we have no visibility on it. you have no visibility on it. only the police have visibility on it. they are conducting their new inquiry.

i'm sure that we'll go through the thousands and thousands of documents that they have. in a year's time maybe even longer we will actually get to a final position on what exactly happened. >> could i ask you just a couple of questions. you talked about tommy sheridan the former msp. a question to you that unfortunately james murdoch couldn't answer. during the course of last year's sheridan trial gave evidence undernoet on two occasions. that email was relating to the case showing contact between news of the world and crown witnesses, private detectors, surveillance, phone hacking they were lost in some black hole in mumbai. that's not the case. >> i think actually what happened he was referring to an issue that we had with our supplies. i think i'm correct in thinking

the information commissioner has actually put out a clarification to that and explained that there was no issue and that they were entirely comfortable with news international's response to that. >> do you know who gave him that advice that the emails are lost? >> i don't know. >> the defense team has still not received these retrieved emails. do you have any idea why? >> the emails have since been retrooved? the defense team still haven't received them. any idea why? >> i think the clarification from the information commissioner was in fact that what had happened was the editor of the scottish news of the world had made a comment during the trial which had been interpreted as you are saying now, but actually when he looked into it and asked news international for an explanation it was actually a problem with the -- with our spliers in india and there was no such retrieval. >> have you had any contact with

andy coulson during the sheridan case? >> during the sheridan case? >> i think andy was -- andy coulson was in downing street during the sheridan case. so i would have had some contact. >> no direct contact, no emails or letters? >> i said i would have had contact. >> there are no emails just a conversation? >> it would have been manly to do with work, but by email or by telephone. >> just a couple more questions. why would the news of the world, why were you paying andy coulson's legal fees and mull kair's legal fees? >> as i understand it, i know james murdoch addressed this, when andy coulson left the news of the world, he had an agreement that all matters relating to this his legal fees were paid.

and i think the same for clive goodman. on glen mullclaire, i think it was when his legal fees would be paid when he was a codefendant in these civil cases. >> are you aware of any payment to police officers? >> no. >> none. >> i'd like to ask some questions about the dowda case. you were editor of news of the world during the period of the abduction and subsequent murder. just could you just paint a picture for us about how a newspaper like news of the world goes about reporting on such a big story? what the level of the editor, deputy editor, senior reporters would be in putting together and overseeing the story? >> i think any big story. forrer the purpose of process

most stories start out with the reporter. and that reporter may be being asked by the news editor to go and investigate a story or they may have brought information about a story from their own contacts to the news editor. it is at that stage in a newspaper where the reporter and news editor discuss the voracity of the information, go out and check the allegations, and come back with a more considered view. you can imagine that every newspaper gets a lot of information to the news desk and only percentage very small percentage makes it actually to publication. there are many layers from reporter to assistant news editor to news editor. finally this story will go to the back bench which will be the people that will oversee the stopping of that story and the subwill often talk to the reporter directly with questions and amendments to the copy. the lawyers are involved at this stage throughout the process. and then finally the final decision on publication would be

made by the editor where it is and how prominent it was. obviously in the dowda disappearance was a terrible news story. it covered by all newspapers and for a very long time the trial only finished last month. >> for something like this would it be normal to expect that it would have been the editor, or a senior member of the editorial staff that cay, the lawyers who would sign off on anything because of the incredible sensitivity of the material? >> that's true, yes. that on any story. but particularly as you say on such a sensitive story the lawyers would be heavily involved and talking to the reporters and to the news editors or the news editors, the executives on the news desk as to where the information came from or what the voracity of that information.

>> how involved are you personally in the milly doweler case. >> as i said the story ran for a very, very long time. i will have been involved in the story over the many years. even when i was editor of the sun. the milly doweler investigation and the pursuit of justice has been in the news for many, many years. nine years. >> facing the time the nice of the world was particular lippert innocent to our hearing today, would you say the milly coweller case was a story that you were more heavily involved with that be other stories that took place during your editorship simply because of the magnitude of the events. it was a real shock hond horror at what had happened. >> not particularly more or less involved. the one thing that i would say is we had had a series of

terrible and tragic news stories starting with sarah payne and milly doweler's disappearance and subsequent murder and then of course the other cases. part of the my main focus in editorship was in convincing parliament that there needs to be radical changes to the 1997 sex offenders act, which became known as sarah's law. which was very similar to laws imposed in america under megan's law. i suppose if i had a particular extra involvement in any of those stories it would have been on the basis that i was trying to push and campaign for readers rights versus on the issues on the ten pieces of legislation that we got through on sarah's law and just campaigning for those to be put forward. >> when you gave evidence to the

committee in 2003 you referenced the milly doweler case as an example of how you thought the press had worked particularly well with the police and family and lienson officers and it was a view supported by andy coulson who gave testimony with you that day. is that something you stand by now? and did you have particular knowledge of the case? >> when i spoke about it in 2003 i was unaware of what i now know. however, in 2003 as far as i was concerned which may sound in lying of what we believe the allegations are now, it may sound quite frankly ridiculous. but at the time i believed that both on the milly doweler case and in the sewn cases that the press had exercised huge caution and tried to respect the privacy of the families, for example, i remember in one case that one member of the press association

was sent to go to the village and i was referring to the fleet street had actually come together and used the press complaints commission code and adhered to it to respect the privacy of the families. clearly the allegations that came out two weeks ago if true are appalling and obviously contradict that statement i made. >> in the context of what we know now is ridiculous. when were you first aware that milly doweler's phone was hacked? >> i think it was last monday, maybe the monday before. >> that was the first you heard of it? >> i heard of it when the story at first broke in the media on monday evening. >> nothing has been said to you at news of the world to suggest that milly doweler's phone was hack and that might have been authorized by the news of the world? >> of course, not.

no. >> when were you aware that people of the news of the world gave this information to the police information about what was on milly doweler's phone to support the investigation? >> at the moment, again, i want to be slightly careful, i want to be as open as possible. we saw the story same time that you all saw the story. my instant reaction like everybody else was one of shock and disgust. and that a family who had suffered so much already had had that these allegations were clearly added immeasurely to their suffering. the first thing i did was write many and mrs. doweler with a full apology to say that we would get to the bottom of the allegations and if anyone representing the news of the world or authorized by a professional journalists at the news of the world, which i still find staggering to believe, if

we find out that is true, i have every confidence that news international and the place will get to the bottom of that and they should as a priority. >> i appreciate your statement. when you were aware of information that was passed to the police from the hacking of milly doweler's phone. now you're saying you weren't aware of that until it was reported reebtly in the newspapers. if it is the case that employees of the news of the world were firstly sanctioned hacking of doweler's phone since he deleted emails from it, knew that and withheld that information from you and then decided of their own ve ligs to put that information on to believe. is that what you're saying? >> can you -- >> employees at the news of the

world relating to information to the hacking in milly doweler's phone was given to police to support the information. you said the first you knew about that was when it was reported in newspapers. >> yes. >> but what i'm saying is it must be the case therefore that someone without your knowledge an employee of yours at the news of the world decided without consulting the editor or maybe -- to pass that on to the place. is that from your position is that the case? the is that the chain of events that must have existed? >> i think i understand the question now. i think it's important to say that obviously the milly doweler news story went on for many years. and i have been editor of both the news of the world and the sun while that investigation was ongoing. what you asked my and i thought you were referring to is when did i first hear an allegation that milly doweler's phone or voice mails had been intercepted

by either someone working for the news of the world or authorized by someone at the news of the world. the first time i had ever heard that was two weeks ago. >> right. with regard to information you passed to police about hacking of the phone -- >> i wrote the police immediately. my first protocol was to send milly doweler's family an unserved apology on behaf -- >> i'm andrea mitchell in washington. we go to the white house where chuck todd is standing by. the president is going to come into the briefing room in the next minute or two. he's going to be discussing clearly the debt ceiling deadline. chuck, what are we expecting to hear fl the white house as we hear the gang of six has reconstituted and there may be another option for actually doing something significant about debt reduction before the debt ceiling deadline? >> andrea, you hit the nail on the head. there's been a couple of moments

on capitol hill. publicly we know there's a bunch of show votes, the balanced budget amendment and speaker boehner needs to do for the base of his party mchl the united states senate there has been a gang of six, three democrats and three republicans including conservative senator tome coburn who personally is very close with president obama. we know they've been talking fairly frequently over the last few weeks. coburn who had pulled out of the gang of six is now in. it is very slaer to the plan that the president himself has been pushing in his form of a grand bargain. while don't expect a full endorsement, don't be surprised if there's strong signals from the president of how support i have he would be of an idea like that as opposed to the legislative gymnastics that the u.s. senate, harry reid and mitch mcconnell are trying to put together. >> we have an exclusive peek at the "the wall street journal" poll. a majority 55% of americas questioned believe this is a serious problem if congress

fails to raise the debt limit. >> the public education i guess if you will on the debt ceiling has certainly increased quite a bit in our polling over the last three months when you would blankly ask the question about raising the debt ceiling. there would be an automatic negative response. that's gone away. you've seen the number like we previewed today. i hear the clicks. >> here's the president. >> i wanted to give folks a quick update on the progress that we're making on the debt ceiling discussion. i was in contact with all the leadership over the course of the weekend. and continued to urge both democrats and republicans to come together around an approach that not only lifts the debt ceiling but also solves the underlying challenges that we face when it comes to debt and deficits. some progress was made in some of the discussions. some narrowing of the issues. speaker boehner and the republican house caucus felt it

necessary to put forward the plan that they're going to be voting on today. i think everyone's estimation is that is not an approach that could pass both chambers. it's not an approach that i would sign and is not balanced. but i understand the need for them to test that proposition. the problem we have now is we're in the 11th hour. and we don't have a lot more time left. the good news is that today a group of senators, the gang of six democrats and republicans, i guess now gang of seven because one additional republican senator added on put forward a proposal that is broadly consistently with the approach that i've unched. what it says is we've got to be serious about reducing discretionary spending both in domestic spending and defense. we've got to be serious about tackling health care spening and entitlements in a serious way.

and we've got to have some additional revenue. so that we have an approach in which there is shared sacrifice, and everybody is giving up something. and so for us to see democratic senators acknowledge that we've kbod to deal with our long-term debt problems that arise out of our various entitlement programs. and for republican senators to acknowledge that revenues will have to be part of a balanced package that makes sure that nobody is disproportionally hurt from us making progress on the debt and deficits i think is a very significant step. and as i said, the framework that they put forward is broadly consistent with what we've been working on here in the white house and with the presentations that i've made to the leadership when they've come over here. so here's where we stand, we have a democratic president and

administration that is prepared to sign a tough package that includes both spending cuts modifications to social security, medicaid, and medicare that would strengthen those systems and allow them to move forward. and would include a revenue component. we now have a bipartisan group of senators who agree with that balanced approach. and we've got the american people who agree with that balanced approach. my hope and what i would be urging speaker boehner, nancy pelosi as well as leader reid and mitch mcconnell is they tomorrow from eare prepared to start talking turkey and getting down to the hard business of crafting a plan that can move this forward in time for the august 2nd deadline that we've set forward. just a couple other points i will make.

some of you may ask what does it mean for the plan that senator mcconnell and senator reid have been working on? our attitude is that that continues to be a necessary approach to put forward in the event that we don't get an agreement at minimum we've got to raise the debt ceiling. so that's the bare minimum that has to be achieved. but we continue to believe that we can achieve more. and so i want to congratulate the gang of six for coming up with a plan that i think is balanced. we just received it. so we haven't reviewed all the details of it. it would not match perfectly with some of the approaches that we've taken, but i think that we're in the same playing field. and my hope is that we can start gathering everybody over the next couple of days to choose a clear direction and to get this issue resolved.

so far at least, the markets have shown confidence that leadership here in washington are not going to send the economy over a cliff. but if we continue to go through a lot of political posturing, if both sides continue to be dug in, if we don't have a basic spirit of cooperation that allows us to rise above immediate election year politics and actually solve problems when i think markets here, the american people and the international community are going to start reacting adversely fairly quickly. so i think it's very important in these next couple of days to understand we don't have anymore time to engage in symbolic gestures. we don't have anymore time to posture. it's time to get down to the business of actually solving this problem and i think we now are seeing the potential for a

bipartisan consensus around what that would take. it would will hard. it will be tough. there's still going to be a lot of driflt negotiations that have to take place in order for us to actually get something done. as i said, we have to have that fail safe that senator mcconnell and senator reid are working on. but the hope is that everybody seizes this opportunity. all right. okay, guys -- i'm going to let jay answer questions today. i think i've been pretty good to you guys. but after the votes today in the house, i'll call up speaker boehner and the other leadership and we'll arrange for times where we bring folks back here and hopefully we'll be able to report on some additional progress over the next few days. thank you very much, guys. >> would that be in the next day? >> as i said, i think what you're going to be seeing is an elves of that plan versus is things that we've been looking at. i think you're going to see some significant overlap.

but obviously just because we might agree in principal with the range of issues with six senators or seven senators, that doesn't get us out of the house of representatives that doesn't get us out of the senate. there's going to have to be a broader agreement on the part of all the leadership that we're going to get this done in a serious way and we've got a tight deadline to do it. all right. thanks, guys. >> and with that the president announces that he has endorsed in principal which the gang or six or now the gang of seven is working on. he said, obviously that does not get us us out of the house of representatives. that at least is a template for going forward if the leaders get behind it. joining me now richard wolf who's been watching all of this. what a day you can see -- >> incredible day. >> all the news is breaking in every way. now the president trying to move forward with the debt ceiling by saying that there has been some prg, at least, something that he

thinks is positive. >> he made a joke about this the other day, that's why he put hope on his posters in the campaign. this hope that the big deal would re-emerge when it looked like it's falling apart has obviously come to some kind of new chapter here. what you saw just then was the president really tipping the balance pretty significantly in the direction of the gang of six work. and that itself takes you back all of about 18 months to that fiscal responsibility commission that he set up with erskine bowles and alan simpson. they were broadly in line with each other. at the same time he's saying we're running out of time. keep the momentum going and we'll look for the bigger deal. whether the two things match up, whether you can come up with the sketch, an agreed sketch of this bigger deal in time for the debt ceiling is an open question here. even if the hope can be kept alye. it's not clear that you can get all of these things together to go in $4 trillion of cuts over the next decades. they're obviously feeling much

better about this whole process many the white house. >> of course, the mcconnell, he said that mitch mcconnell and harry reid's proposal is a fail safe if they can't get this all done. when the books on this and you're one of the prime authors, when the books are written on this, richard, we may go back to why the president, why this white house did not fully embrace simpson-bowles back when they had the opportunity and whether we would have had a very different outcome and a very different approach to deficit reduction if they had come out more assertively back then. that said, the house is voting on what the president chose to call symbol ig gestures. he said he understood why the house speaker and the caucus felt that they needed to get that done today. it's clearly not going any place. once that is done, then we get into the process of talking turkey tomorrow. he called the gang of six a significant step.

talking turkey tomorrow means the leadership has to get behind this. as he pointed out, just endorsing the gang of six or the gang of seven is not getting them out of the house and through the senate. >> that was the surprising note of empathy for what speaker boehner's going through. just yesterday the white house was calling it duck, dodge and dismantle. today he says i understand why they have to do this. these sweeping cuts that are a part of that whole constitutional amendment vote going on in the house any minute now, that is a way for the president to open the door to the hard work that's still got to be done in the house. remember as a former senator he's in line with the work of these other senators, but the problem has been in the house and whether the house republican leadership really is in control of its own caucus here. so that's the great unknown and we still don't really have a handle whether or not these senators agree, will the house speaker be in a position to rustle up some kind of majority

either in his own poert or with democrats, too. we just don't know that. >> in fact, even today mike kelly a republican freshman from pennsylvania and a group of other tea party supporters were out in front of the white house on pennsylvania avenue in the sweltering heat protesting against what is happening on the deficit on the budget because they want something much more dramatic. thanks so much richard wolf. we'll be back in a moment with what's happening in iowa 2012 john harwood there. stay with us. [ female announcer ] experience dual-action power,

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rock n roll will never die. how can the plum card's trade terms get your business booming? booming is putting more music in more people's hands. next month yoi yooi's straw poll could be make or break for some republican hopefuls. notably tim pawlenty. he is pouring everything into the hawkeye state planning a donze stops in next week alone. john harwood is there. great to see you. thanks, john for joining us. the ames poll and everything that is coming up really is make or break for tim pawlenty. he's got michele bachmann pushing him hard. now there's the possibility that

before ames rick perry could get into it. >> reporter: exactly. if you look at the national polls tim pawlenty is stuck in the single digits. if you look at the iowa polls including the december edmonton register's iowa poll most recently he was also in single digits. this is state say jis ent to minnesota where he has got to make a breakthrough. in this state with only $1.5 million left according to the last financial report, he's going all in on this straw poll with the idea of finishing in the top tier. you have field staffers phoning people trying to get people out to his events. he's trying to show people that this is still a viable candidacy. >> and when we talk about rick perry, who might have some traction in iowa among those who perhaps don't like michele bachmann and are looking for something more exciting than tim pawlenty, to be frank, he's got this august 6th christian

revival meeting it would be after that, but potentially before ames that rick perry could decide and announce he's getting into the race. >> reporter: exactly. what makes rick perry darns for tim pawlenty also for mitt romney who's the front runner right now, like tim pawlenty he can appeal across the spectrum. social conservatives, he'll talk about job creation in texas, should he get in. he's also somebody who generates spark and heat with the base of the republican party. that's tim pawlenty's challenge. his campaign manager a very talented young guy who signed on with the campaign told me yesterday we're going to prove in the next three weeks that we can ignite a spark as well. that challenge is still before him. i've got the tell you based on your previous conversation with richard wolf it's very interesting the way this republican primary campaign plays into that debt ceiling dugs. what people like tim pawlenty are hearing on the campaign trail from republican partisans

is don't raise it. you've got cross kurns between those in washington -- >> you sure do. >> reporter: some including john boehner and the gang of six trying to come together on a deal, but the republican base is saying not so fast. >> and michele bachmann taking the hard line against it in south carolina today. it was interesting that rick perry did say that the des moines religion stare that i'm getting more and more comfortable every day that this is what i've been called to do, menning run for president. then he tried to clarify that with some texas reporters in austin. there are different ways to be called. my mother may call me for dinner. my friends may call for something. people are to order call tty: 1-800-544-3316 ing from across the country to mee directly or saying i wish you would do this. a lot of weasel words. >> we've seen a lot of texas -- we've seen a lot of texas two step from rick perry over the last several weeks. it does seem to me that the gist of movement by his operatives and by perry himself is that

warm increasingly to the idea of this campaign. by the way it's 100 in iowa. it's very warm for everybody. the thing that rick perry would bring to the race say against michele bachmann is having been elected multiple times as governor of texas he can boast more of an establishment veneer and say i've run a big state unlike michele bachmann who just had a record in congress. that's the way that he can potentially jump over here and get the tea party and economic confers as well. >> great having you, john harwood. thanks so much. see you tomorrow. what political story will be making headlines in the next 24 hours, that's next right here. and tomorrow we're taking the show to capitol hill with the latest on the debt talks that's tomorrow 1:00 eastern only on "andrea mitchell reports". cutting the social security and medicare benefits we worked for. with billions in waste and loopholes,

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what political story will make headlines in the next 24 hours? we will be talking turkey, won't we? nbc contributor and managing editor of politico.com chris

cillizza joins us today, and the president says he wants to get together and talk turkey and now the gang of six is now a gang of seven and lamar alexander has joined in. >> and president obama kind of optimistic and pushing the gang of six/seven with lamar alexander coming on board. it show yos new washingts you t there is always a second act. remember when the gang of six imploded when tom coburn said we will not come together with a deal and this is basically what we could say is a grand bargain on this, and we thought that this was the gang of six was dead and bury and lo and behold, they are back in a major way, and still waiting to see what the proposal will be, but the president gave it very much a thumb's up, and expectant waiting on it, so they have to feel good. >> and of course, if all of this collapses, as the president at

least can be projecting gai inis he has been projecting that he is the grown-up in the room and reasonable, and that is the whole approach and we want to re-emphasize that our new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll, and the full poll will be out at 6:30, but the bottom line is that 55% of those questioned say it is a real and serious problem if the debt limit is not raised. >> and you mentioned this, andrea, talking to john harwood, but while the numbers have to be heartening president obama because people know the stakes, but i'm interested when the full poll comes out, but what do self-identified republicans say? do they think it is a real problem, and hpew came out witha poll saying that they were not that concerned of the consequences by republicans and that is what is hard about constructing a deal is that the republican base does not think it is a hard deadline and not that worried about it and do not believe the gloom and doom talk, so it is hard for the leaders to

cut a deal and not get out of step with the base. that is what is making it so hard to get everybody to the table and get something signed off on. >> exactly. it is 63% of the democrats in the poll, and the internals of that poll show that it is mostly democrats who believe, who believe that, and as john harwood pointed out all of the pressure on the house side is to vote no. thank you so much, and we will see you tomorrow, chris cillizza, and that is going to do it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." tomorrow on the show, we will be live from the capitol with the latest on the debt talks and among the guests democratic chair debbie wassermann schultz, and senator chuck schumer and governor mcdonnell from virginia. and up next is tamron hall. >> in our hour, we will be following the dramatics of the hearings going on in london where rupert murdoch said he is not responsible for the phone hacking scandal that rocked his media empiempire. and more on murdoch's wife,

wendy, who jumped to his husband's defense as a protester splattered something in his face. and what role does she play in the empire and in her husband's defense? let me tell you about a very important phone call i made.

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